tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post113521233037393791..comments2023-09-11T04:49:45.663-04:00Comments on Esoteric Murmurs: RewardsEd Hhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01262472490580424119noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1138075710089479222006-01-23T23:08:00.000-05:002006-01-23T23:08:00.000-05:00Sydney -- totally yeah! I had seen that thread sh...Sydney -- totally yeah! I had seen that thread shortly before you commented and was happy at how well it addressed my wonderings.Ed Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262472490580424119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1138037097229511092006-01-23T12:24:00.000-05:002006-01-23T12:24:00.000-05:00This recent Forge thread -- http://www.indie-rpgs....This recent Forge thread -- http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18387.msg193968#msg193968 -- was really helpful to me. (It's also hotlinked to my name, I think).<BR/><BR/>The bottom line I took away: rewards/reinforcement/whatever is not about a mechanical thing in the game. It is about how the other real live people you're playing with treat you in response to something you do, thereby reinforcing (or discouraging) you the real live person from doing that thing again. Levelling up, rewriting your character sheet, etc. only matter in so far as they somehow impress the other people at the table.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1136488764501212822006-01-05T14:19:00.000-05:002006-01-05T14:19:00.000-05:00Thanks, Troy. Not sure I'm convinced by your post...Thanks, Troy. Not sure I'm convinced by your post -- that a direct parallel from Ron's "System Does Matter" is relevant -- but I'm glad to have that to think about.Ed Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262472490580424119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1136254370084143052006-01-02T21:12:00.000-05:002006-01-02T21:12:00.000-05:00Heya,I wrote something about rewards on my blog. ...Heya,<BR/><BR/>I wrote something about rewards on my blog. Rather than be redundant and sumarize it here, I'll just direct you to my post.<BR/><BR/>http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/2006/01/is-play-its-own-reward.html<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>-TroyTroy_Costisickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15025106072717054363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1135287866873135942005-12-22T16:44:00.000-05:002005-12-22T16:44:00.000-05:00Yeah, "challenge" isn't quite right for me. Too ...Yeah, "challenge" isn't quite right for me. Too many interpersonal, win/loss connotations, and that's not at all what we're talking about here. But it avoids the "doggie biscuit" extrinsic-motivator implications of "reward."<BR/><BR/>I guess I'm happy to know what "reward"/"reward cycle" is supposed to mean, but I'm not happy with the terms.<BR/><BR/>But that's OK. :)Ed Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262472490580424119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1135286938367180722005-12-22T16:28:00.000-05:002005-12-22T16:28:00.000-05:00Ed,Your "challenge" thing is what I mean when I sa...Ed,<BR/><BR/>Your "challenge" thing is what I mean when I say "reward" and "reward cycle." Exactly the same. If you want a different term, challenge seems problematic. If you want to reach some understanding, mission accomplished. Great post.John Harperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11804100598627834615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1135281028534056632005-12-22T14:50:00.000-05:002005-12-22T14:50:00.000-05:00Right. Without getting too GNS-masturbatory, one ...Right. Without getting too GNS-masturbatory, one might suggest that narrativist games use their rules to challenge you to deal with thematic conflicts, gamist games use their rules to challenge you to deal with competitive, win-lose struggles, and simulationist games perhaps challenge you to put the "what if" through its paces?<BR/><BR/>I dunno. It does make more sense to me personally to talk about "where/how does it challenge you" instead of "for what does it reward you". I don't know if it's a necessary distinction for anyone else but it helps me.Ed Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262472490580424119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1135280359730278292005-12-22T14:39:00.000-05:002005-12-22T14:39:00.000-05:00Hmm, challenge could be useful. It does automatica...Hmm, challenge could be useful. It does automatically make one consider gamism, but for narativism, I think there is challenge. It is challenge of ideas/morals/whatever. Look at the advice in Dogs to take the statements the players make by their choices, and push them hard "What about THIS situation?" That's a challenge of the position the player has taken by his thematic statements.<BR/><BR/>I think challenge could be applied to simulationism also, in that it's challenge of the dream. Does the dream hold up under this input?<BR/><BR/>Thinking of challenge may help see that the reward isn't the doggie biscuit, but the satisfaction of meeting the challenge the game poses (whether that be gamist, narativist, or simulationist).<BR/><BR/>FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1135278564990397602005-12-22T14:09:00.000-05:002005-12-22T14:09:00.000-05:00I think I understand less now than when I started....I think I understand less now than when I started. :)<BR/><BR/>All I know is I don't think it's useful for me to use the word "reward" to talk about these things.<BR/><BR/>Here's a totally different metaphor.<BR/><BR/>We tend to have fun when we are challenged. Not when we are stymied, and not when there is no resistance. When there is enough complexity, and enough demand on us, to absorb our attention. State of flow.<BR/><BR/>You can think of reward systems in the context of challenge. A "reward" is feedback: an indication that you have met a challenge and there are further challenges ahead. In and of itself, "rewards" are nothing. But in the context of a challenging activity, where they mark the boundaries between challenge cycles, they become meaningful.<BR/><BR/>Then you can ask: in what context does the game challenge you? Instead of, for what does the game reward you?<BR/><BR/>That removes (for me) the unfortunate doggie-biscuite connotations of "reward."<BR/><BR/>Although I still worry that "challenge" is too closely tied to implications of win-loss, success-failure, and the like.<BR/><BR/>I dunno. Does modulating "reward" into "challenge" make any sense to others?Ed Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262472490580424119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1135276531256037932005-12-22T13:35:00.000-05:002005-12-22T13:35:00.000-05:00Chris -Hmm, is the actual point the killing, or th...Chris -<BR/><BR/>Hmm, is the actual point the killing, or the tactical play that leads up to the killing? Subtle distinction, but I think the tactical play is the fruitful void. The actual killing, the XP earned for such, and the levelling up (so you have more interesting tactical choices) is the cycle that surrounds that fruitful void.<BR/><BR/>And the problem with 1st level play is not enough tactical options, due to fragility of the characters, spell casters not getting enough spells [only 1 spell in 1e], fighters not having many feats, etc.<BR/><BR/>FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10738063.post-1135238931559095102005-12-22T03:08:00.000-05:002005-12-22T03:08:00.000-05:00Chris - that's my thought too, and I think that's ...Chris - that's my thought too, and I think that's why Ron always talks about reward cycle.<BR/><BR/>My gut feeling is that's also why I discovered the players really weren't all that concerned with how I figured out how much XP to award in my D20 Arcana Evolved campaign (but they did notice, and were bothered by, the player who was getting way more XP than anyone else when we were using the Sweet20 keys system).<BR/><BR/>Of course the actual reward in D20 is levelling up your character. And as long as you get to do that often enough, and as long as players can see the reward cycle actually produce (and they're in tune with the reward cycle), they're happy.<BR/><BR/>Another thought I had a couple weeks ago is that the cycle around Vincent's Fruitful Void is the reward cycle. Which of course means what's in the fruitful void is the real reward.<BR/><BR/><I>If I really want to kill things and take their stuff, why start me out bad at that, and only make me good later?</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think the issue here is strictly that increasing character ability (levelling up) makes one bad at the start. The problem is that in D&D the character is too fragile at low level. It's too easy to get knocked off the path and then the reward cycle is broken.<BR/><BR/>FrankFrankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855679156477779666noreply@blogger.com